? who said anything about a magical pro? a good trainer can work thru a surprisingly diverse range of issues in fairly quick order. it wont mean the horse is "fixed" but it will give the horse the basic rules to live by and help them proceed on the right path.
Originally Posted by Perfect Pony
that is why they they are considered "pros" after all. i agree there are a lot of folks i would not consider to be "pros" out there calling themselves trainers - on the other hand - there really are folks that know what they are doing... the trick is to know the difference.... .
I must say..
The feel of this thread is so different than the French thread.
I am starting the horse I am rider practically from scratch,
And although I have taught lessons and done some training over the years I do not consider myself a pro.
The op sounds like she has a firm grasp of the problems
It was just interesting to note the different types of responses to their questions as opposed to the responses to questions on the French thread.:confused::yes:
Originally Posted by meupatdoes
fine by me, often people do what your doing thats fine and often lots of people dont look at themselves and there own ability as in level of riding dont care if your a novice or an amatuer means the same thing really
Originally Posted by HorseShopping
but your missing the point made--------------- the horse is advading so ask yourself why- i gave a link to help you out a tad but obviously its not needed as you dont think its is
bits are only as strong as the hands that use them
the horse isn't relaxed - as he/she fighting you wont win that battle unless you learn to give and look at what your asking the horse to do
as a horse will only do what its rider is asking - horses re-act to how you act ok dokey
I don't think it will take months.
I also don't think you should use side reins on her, draw reins, martingales, or any other restraining device. All of these things will just teach her to evade contact and will mess up your "whoa".
I work for a rider who retrains problem horses like this (she actually has one right now who does not accept contact and will rear if he feels the contact). She uses Andrew McLean's principles. You should look into him. I'm not even kidding, this guy knows what he's talking about and it's AMAZING the difference he can make in a horse/rider in just one session. I am new to Andrew (just been working for this rider for a month), but I'm sold on him.
You need to focus on her basics: stop, go, turn, yield. The fact that she is having these issues reveals that she has a problem there.
no it doesn't. Not at all. Novice means you're new to something. Amatuer means you do not get paid for it. I've seen plenty of amatuer riders that are certainly more qualified than a lot of "professionals" out there.
Originally Posted by goeslikestink
"horse does not get forward nor working into contact... those issue can and will be resolved in a day or two by a well seated rider that knows what they are doing. "
Originally Posted by mbm
bolding mine. So which is it?
I have to agree. I find on this bb the responses depend heavily on who is doing the asking.
Originally Posted by Sannois
I usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt, especially when they have a logical and well thought out plan like the OP. I may offer any suggestions or just read along to learn something.
I view the forums as a place to come talk "horse". Kind of like an extended version of picking up the phone and calling a horse friend to discuss any issues, bounce around ideas etc.
Very long original post...but good it was thorough. I did not read all the replies.
What stuck with me was your first line..."all physical problems were resolved".
What were the physical problems?
Horse habituate quickly. If this horse was asked to do things it could not do because of a physical cause, just because it was resolved does not mean the conditioned response will just go away. And even the best, willing horse can become reluctant because they anticipate pain...long after it is really gone.
I'm with the others that say start over. Like a baby, green bean. When a horse has been asked to do what it can't (regardless of the discipline) then go back, back, back. If pain was causative, then it will take much longer for them to trust a rider/handler. Sometimes a very long time.
I would suggest going back to one of the bibles in starting a dressage horse...Klimke. Training the Young Dressage Horse.
Just because a horses' physical issues have "been resolved", it doesn't mean the horse knows that yet or will immediately lose its defenses...no matter the age.
Hope this helps.
Getting a horse to go forward is the star of the process....a good trainer will have the horse forward quickly....but that is the starting point... I am not sure why folks are reacting to my suggestion to get help?
Originally Posted by Karosel
Getting help makes everything easier and then rider can move on to other things... Heck i am lucky enough to be in full training and i am learning so much! anyway good luck to the op... .
I think you are reading a little past the posts here.
Originally Posted by Perfect Pony
"LESSONS" implies the STUDENT is riding.
How does the horse respond if you do in-hand work? What is her reaction when you ask for contact in-hand in halt (ala PK methods - perhaps see the french threads?)? My horse (an 11yo OTTB) didn't know how to relax in the canter and was always on the muscle so couldn't take correct contact. She was also very prone to having her ears around my nose and was very muscled on the underside of the neck. While this is a slightly different problem, it is still about correct contact and I have finally started to solve it in-hand. My horse and I work on flexions and extending the neck FDO into the contact in-hand and then I started continuing it while riding. I was stunned that the first time I tried it in canter, she stretched down into a relaxed, soft contact for the first time ever in canter and is now learning to continue cantering on a correct contact!
Anyway, good luck with your project!
My 5 year old mare has been very growthy and leggy (still is) so I've done very little cantering. As she has matured and her walk and trot work solidified I added canter. If the canter deteriorated, I went back to trot. She is finally growing into herself and able to canter in balance. Worth the wait. A different situation than yours, but IMHO (and I am not a young horse trainer) getting things right/correct at the trot and staying there for a while make the canter good when you get there. There were times, I'd go back and reinforce the basics then move on again. Wish there was a magic formula for all of us but there isn't. You sound like a good, capable rider. Take internet advice for what it is, but also trust your gut as a horseman. You already have done that by pursueing the granulosa cell tumor route. Best of Luck!
I was surprised by the side reins suggestions.
When you say "too much leg" at the canter, do you mean when put leg on she bucks instead of going forward?
I'd use the disengagement technique (strong bend, or tight half circle, with the hind legs MOVING even as the hind legs cross under) when she starts bucking, then send FORWARD. Then you don't have to ride through strong bucks if that's what she does.
If she doesn't respond to your leg I'd work on that first, and leave the contact for later.
well also at least for me - *seeing* how it is done - ie watching an excellent trainer train is worth more than gold..... because then i know it is possible and also how to do it.... adding lessons in is of course needed - but seeing is believing in my mind....
Originally Posted by meupatdoes
Just a quick update...
Had a really good ride on the mare today. Only walked and trotted but she had VERY little fussiness with her head. She is starting to figure out how to work more correctly at the trot and that a tiny feel of her mouth is not the end of the world. Not "on the bit" yet but a much more relaxed way of going. Stretching her neck in a good way, without snatching at the bit or pulling. It's just a start but I feel this will take a lot of little building blocks. The mare gets defensive so you can't ask for everything at once. And it makes sense that she needs to learn to work more correctly and start to build the correct muscles before she REALLY accepts contact. She previously objected to anything other than a total loop in the rein so we have taken our first baby step.
I am also talking with a young eventing trainer in my area and she may come to my place once or twice a week, starting in a month or so. I want to get things fairly solid at the trot and then let her work with mare. She has taken several "less than perfect" horses and turned them into really nice event horses. I feel she might be better suited than the local dressage trainers to help me with this mare, at least in the short term. I also feel this is a much better solution than sending this horse off to training. I will be more involved and can monitor how things are going very closely.
Great update! Best wishes for continued success! :yes:
I have one of these horses. Well, I've always had one of these horses. I've never had a "finished" or "push button" horse come into my hands. Of course, I've never paid more than $800 for one.
One of my current horses was given to me for just the reasons you talk about. It took months of steady, unemotional work to get him to even think about trusting his rider. He would buck every time you asked for canter and had been ridden in a twisted wire snaffle and attempted neck reining. He's a rather hot Arab who spent most of his youth handled by green riders.
I started with basic ground work and yes, I longed in side reins. I started with a running martingale and french link when aboard so he would bump himself with the head tossing and he learned to accept a comforting, consistant contact. I had to ride through a few sulking fits and did get my shirt dirty a few times but he's really coming around and tries.
You have to know that you will make mistakes and most likely hit the ground but if you have a decent seat and good hands you can work through most of the problems. Plan to spend a long time on the bottom of the training scale. Rhythm and relaxation.
If you have the luxury of good instruction I highly recommend it. My mentor and friend passed away and I haven't been able to make myself find someone new.
This. It seems sometimes that slower gaits and forced contact (side reins) are safer, when really encouraging forward first could be most helpful.
Originally Posted by cnm161
Brought the horse home on Wednesday, she got her feet done Friday and I gave her a few days to settle in. She does seem to take longer than most horses to settle into a new routine.
Longed her for the first time today and she did VERY well. What really helped me is I took my 5-yr-old for a longeing session with a German clinician I ride with and he gave me some very useful tips. (My 5-yr-old would accept contact under saddle fine but seriously objected to being longed in side reins. She did great in side reins with him. And as a side note, she longed great for me in side reins today. The clinician was truly amazing to watch - who knew a longeing session could be SO educational for both the horse and me!)
Anyway, longed her on a smaller circle than I usually do so I could better control forward and bend. Just longed at the trot before I added side reins. She was stretching her neck down before I added side reins and she did fine with the side reins. I did keep them longer than I used on my 5-yr-old - I started to put them shorter but she backed up a few steps and I didn't want to get into a train wreck I couldn't handle. So, lengthened them a little and she happily went forward into them and stretched nicely. I did NOT canter her with the side reins - that will come later. I did canter her on the longe line and noticed she pinned her ears at the depart and first stride but then was okay. But, she could not hold the canter that long on the smaller circle.
So, I think basically starting over with her is the right thing. However, she is already starting to understand that stretching her neck feels better under saddle (she always went a bit inverted before.) I'm going to longe her for a week or two to get her into a routine (which seems important to her) and then only walk and trot under saddle.
I still think it will be a slow process but I am very encouraged by how she is reacting so far. I think she is willing to try as long as she does not feel pushed and insecure. She definitely is missing some key building blocks in her foundation and those just need to be filled in. I think that takes longer once they are older but I am hoping the end result will be the same! :-)
I really appreciate all the ideas and it is great to hear that people have had success in re-training an older horse that has some issues.