It was quite an ingrained habit with this gelding. I did block him with the reins for a long time and he just kept it up.
Originally Posted by aktill
I finally tired of the battle. He knew it was unacceptable and yet he persisted. I felt a stronger deterrent was needed. I did not kick him in the teeth, he just got a strong tap on his nose from the end of my boot.
I gave him every chance to stop the behavior. He choose to keep it up. Horses are not idiots. When he realized it was not comfortable to bite me he quit.
And was a lovely horse btw. Just a tad spoiled for a while.
I so wish I had bottled common sense a long time ago and sold it to the un-suspecting masses.....I would be rather wealthy! ;-) The NH "trainers" remind me of used car salesmen...way too slick. I went to go watch a Parelli clinic a long time ago. I thought I was at the circus with the spotlights and the blaring music. His horses are beautifully turned out, not a hair out of place, but his dogs....oh those terrific dogs he brought with him...to see them in action was far more exciting and "how did he do that" kind of atmosphere. There is no doubt any person involved with horses brings ideas to the table, those ideas are strictly a product of that person's experiences with a horse. Clinton Anderson and the rest of those guys are merely a product of their own experiences. What they have done though, is hire a marketing person who is SUPERB at their job and turned this NH stuff into a freakin' marketing machine that shows no signs of letting go. For that I applaud their efforts in making $$$. Bully for them but not so great for those who are persuaded to part with their $$$ for all the gadgets that come with "training" their respective horse. Watch how horses interact with each other in a herd and discipline accordingly. It better be swift and brutal or the behaviour you don't want will continue. Flexing....hmmm....the point to that would be?????? To pull a horses' head to your stirrup does nothing but teach him to turn at the withers thus becoming crooked just as wide hands cause a horse to become crooked. Yeah, I have seen the Anderson stuff on TV. Nah, not enamored of it. What he does to a horse, you damn sure cannot do to a mule or believe me...you WILL pay a price! ;-) I am not enamored of any of these NH people....Buck Brannaman....he doesn't tout himself, he has been more a word of mouth kind of advertising guy, no gimmicks. And...he tends to tell ya without smooth talking, exactly why your horse is the way he is....99.9% of every horses' "problems," is the owner. Horses are easy to fix, but getting the owner to realize why her horse is the way he is, well, that in itself requires a miracle. There is always the ONE break through by the owner that turns the tide. Horse does all that kind of teaching, I merely "supervise." At any rate, I just wish I had thought of what these NH people do first! ;-) I'd be rolling in the $$$$. ;-) Carry on guys...lots of good stuff here.
I kind of disagree with some of that.
Originally Posted by Bethe Mounce
I was in on the start of those NH clinicians.
Was offered positions working with their dog and pony shows.
Gave that some consideration, but it felt like it was a bit like being the "barker" at a carnival.
You stand by the door, talking away, with a good spiel to get people to pay their dollar to enter the bearded lady's tent to gawk at her and you get to pull on her beard to see if it was real.:p
The problem I had, especially with the first ones running around the country giving clinics, is that they were abysmally ignorant of even the basics of horsemanship or teaching about horses.
It was so much about smoke and mirrors and groupies following them around, that many didn't know if they had a horse or a camel at the end of a leash.
It was about the humans, horses a mere handy prop.
Yes, they have come a long way, educating themselves along the way, but then, anyone could have done that by regular, traditional instruction with good, proven professionals in the horse world and how we have ended in an information age bar none the past few decades.
If we spend our lives learning and with horses that is imperative, you can't wing it by smooth talk alone, horses will tell on you, you have to walk the walk.
With horses, the older we get, the more we wish we had known then what we know now.
That is the way it is supposed to work, it takes lifetimes to learn so much that is out there.:yes:
No one horse person knows it all. As I have said many times, collectively we are wise, individually, not so wise. ;-) The NH thing has its place in the equine industry. It just doesn't have a place in my horse world, it's common sense. And I don't need a carrot stick to make my point. ;-) Just kidding. A horse is a horse....24/7 he eats and sleeps--he can give me an hour of his time! ;-) We put too many human emotions into a horse. He doesn't think like a human. I can see why people are drawn into the NH crowd. Riding/training is never about the horse, it's about the human's journey thru life and the horse is there to show you the way...he will always tell you who you are, but more importantly, who you are not but who you want to be. Cheers everyone, have a safe day!
Let me try to explain myself better.
I like that some went out on the road with their clinics.
I like what they had to say, because at that time, the ignorance was really abysmal in the areas and population they were targeting.
A bit better some than none, better learn how to communicate with horses in other than just inconsistent jerk and kick and seat of the pants.
Even with bad techniques, a good, sensitive, talented rider would still shine.
It is not rocket science to see what works and how to work with some finesse.
What I didn't like so much is that some went somewhat overboard, dismissing traditional training and using techniques in ways that sounded new, they were not so much, really, but were still rough around the edges, see above why, lack of technical skills, talent and finesse when self taught and worse, were not listening and learning as they went.:no:
Glad that finally, when enough were complaining, they decided maybe there was something after all to the old standard training techniques, really.:p
That is why I say, we could have avoided all that pony and dog show if they had themselves learned the so lacking basics well first.:yes:
I agree, but trying to figure out how horses DO think and being able to calmly manipulate the situation using those "thoughts and motivations" does put the horse in better frame of mind about that hour or more he gives you. I'd rather my horse be mellow about being around me than get all wound up trying to figure out what the crazy monkey wants from him and why she's taking him from his food.
Originally Posted by Bethe Mounce
The rank beginners get mesmerized by these clinicians -- they make it look so easy. The problem comes from narrowly following any one of the "faiths" with exclusion of everything else, INCLUDING the fact that a horse is an animal with his own ideas about how to go about his life and often those ideas have absolutely no hint of being a part of anything you want. These methods encompass the HOW but not so much the WHY or WHEN (although some are a helluva lot better with the whys and whens than others).
There's not much money to be had with setting a total beginner out in front of a herd of horses with the one mandate of "watch and absorb" but there is something to be said for how damn effective a teaching tool it is if you have an open mind to it.
My issue with the well known NH trainers is in the fact that they have people convinced not to ride their horses. Some of them caution against getting on the horse until he responds to every cue. I have even had local trainers tell me certain horses are not safe to ride, and should have at least "30 days more training before I attempt to ride" Malarky! That makes no sense to me, but then I am no arena rider. I like to get out of the arena and trail ride. Yes I spend some time in the round pen, or at the end of a lunge line. But most of my time is in the saddle. Otherwise, I would feel I was simply working with a large dog. :D
I use NH when I see an issue with my horse. Once I have remedied that problem, I move on. I see no need to continue to back a horse up with a "handy stick" when I can cue him with my seat while in the saddle and get him to back as far as I want. Nor is there a need to continue to try to get him to back up faster and faster. Hey, he backs up on cue, what more do I need?
So I see some NH'ers who seem to think we need to spend hours on the ground with our horses instead of riding. I am not about that.
I agree with you, Attack. Ground work is invaluable and has its place- but that place is 'preparation' for riding the horse, for me, and occasional reinforcement of items that pertain to the 'riding' part, if need be. I see people with dead broke, well schooled horses continuing to twirl them around before they get on and ride. The poor horses don't need the twirling and all that's being accomplished is unnecessary wear and tear on their joints.
You need to take care of the biting problem, which is a dangerous habit.There is a difference between mouthing and biting and they can be handled differently.Biting must be handled in an aggressive manor and is handled better in an enclosed area like a round pen because when he tries to bite you, you have to come unglued but keep your distance so not to get kicked. A lunge whip works better because of the distance (please stay a good distance so you don't get kick).This could take more than one try.Now for the mouther you use a milder tactic, when he mouths I would holler (hey!!!) in a loud voice hug his neck rub his head and continue aggervating in this way until he has had enough, he will tell you he dislikes it but continue for 30 sec to 1 minute, use your own judgment,this may also take several sessions.
Saw Clinton in 1999 and he was flexing horse then.
Hitting your horse is never the answer. I agree with the first poster, something use be hurting.
Originally Posted by JFJ
I would imagine OP either already has their answer or is no longer following this 2 year old thread.
I have to say I have the same problem with my horse. Very nibbly, I think it has to do with his short attention span. He'd rather play then do much of anything else. We're trying encourage a healthy work ethic. For me I've found if I focus less on one specific thing (IE bending right or bending left), and ask him to do other things intermittently, like a back, turn on haunches etc it works out a lot better. Ive also decided for him a release will happen when he stops playing around and trying to bit me (once his lips close and he looks more settled.) I keep my hand in a fist so he doesn't have fingers to check out. Keep in mind my horse is mostly just a nibbler, and has never actually bitten maliciously.
I'm using this exercise to teach my horse he can bend without moving around in a circle. The trick is to not over bend. Young horses usually need some help understanding that asking for a bend isn't the same as asking for a turn or moving off the rail. This is just one way you can teach a horse to bend.
Flexing also teaches a horse to give in to pressure. Horses learn when pressure is released so when they are fighting you then give in, you release the pressure. They learn that to relax brings release of the pressure being applied and to fight brings more pressure. Less is more...so with each flex they get lighter and lighter to your touch. If they are doing it easily then to keep doing the exercise is pointless. But some folks forget this part.
Oh dear God. Not this again!
Must be the weather.
Zombie threads are popping up all over. Too many people stuck inside on their computers.
LOL, it took me to page 3 or so when one person replied something like "if I could LIKE you post, I would 1000x..." and I thought, "huh? but you CAN like a post...oh wait..." looks at date of the post...Oct 2012. :-P
I'm pretty sure it's the "Similar Threads" box under the reply box, something pops up that looks interesting and you don't realize it's from 2 years ago ;)
I have no idea about CA's methods but CA himself is a hottie.. very nice on the eyes. I would take one of his clinics just to be in the same arena as him. LOL OK back to the subject. :winkgrin:
At the first Western States Horse Expo in Sacramento Ca, I met Clinton Anderson and his promoter Pam Alfred and her husband. There were a handful of people watching Clintons demo. Pam came to us at our booth and said "wait till you see what we do with this guy! He' cute and foreign! He is very sale-able! That was the year Clinton Anderson was fired from a well known reining ranch in Calif. They did what they promised! They sold him alright! To all the women twitterpated by his looks and accent! And NO horse should be bent in the neck like CA and so many other NH Trainers are doing! It is nonsense and shows how little they really understand horse physics. He sorta is a fraud, even though that is harsh, but A LOT of "Natural Horse Trainers" are. Not out of malice but out of ignorance :(
Originally Posted by Tamara in TN